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"A game like chess suited me because I was able to put everything from my mind and work with something abstract." -- Bono |
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"A game like chess suited me because I was able to put everything from my mind and work with something abstract." -- Bono |
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I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For - Part 2
Hot Press,
December 01, 1988
(Continued from Part 1)
Understandably, it's not a subject he likes to dwell on. Talking about the North, however, he's more expansive. "With regard to the IRA, I know some people think 'he's got no right to talk, he doesn't live in Derry, he doesn't live in Belfast.' But I have the same right to talk about it as anybody in the pub. Even if I wasn't in a band, I'd be talking about it, and I have a right as an Irishman to have an opinion. And not even as an Irishman -- I just have a right to have an opinion." While placing on the record his opposition to the legislation banning Sinn Fein from the airwaves in Britain, he remains unshaken in his belief that the armed struggle is wrong. "I think that the argument that the Provisional IRA puts forward, apart from the moral side of the issue, is just unintelligent -- an unsound and old-fashioned idea that may have had relevance in the past but doesn't now," he says. "Revolution, where the overwhelming majority of the population are not behind it -- and they are both a minority in the North and a minority in the South -- won't work. Also, revolution to turn us into what? I don't think they have a political agenda in the real sense of the world. I don't see a real vision of the future that we could all buy into." What about the withdrawal of British troops as an immediate item for negotiation? "Yeah. I'd like to see that. In fact while I speak out about the IRA, I've also spoken out about the British presence in Northern Ireland on BBC Radio a few weeks ago. I said they don't want to be there and they shouldn't be there. It's obvious that Ireland is an island...The idea of borders is a bit dodgy anyway, not just between North and South but between anywhere. "I think John Hume is the man with real vision. He realises that there is a bigger Europe that we are a part of, and we'll become closer, the North and the South will become closer, by both becoming part of a bigger Europe, a bigger world, with a bigger vision. It's so small, the vision of 'Ireland' and 'Eire Nua.' Who cares about Eire Nua? What about Europe Nua? The World?" Can he understand or appreciate the motivation of someone like Bobby Sands? "Yes, I can, and I must say that you can't but be in awe of the strength of will that it took for Bobby Sands to go on that hunger strike, but I just don't know -- there are people striving to hold on to life. There are people in other countries who are dying because they have no food, not because they are refusing food. To me, their reality is something that we must not forget about. I don't deny that some of the wishes of the IRA and some of the people who support the Provisional IRA are sincere, but they are, in my opinion, sincerely wrong." It's getting on for three in the morning now and the talk is of politics in general, specifically Bono's disillusionment with the options he sees available. "The whole political picture right now is completely outmoded," he suggests. "The Right and the Left are ridiculous -- they don't mean anything anymore. These are old ideologies. You can learn from Marx, you can learn from Lenin -- but my worry is: why are there no new Marxes or Lenins? Why is there such a void in political thinking at the moment? Why are we using solutions to problems of an industrial revolution when we're going through our own revolutions -- technological, ideological, everything-ological. It's different now and different problems need different solutions." Are there any people on the political landscape that he looks to with a degree of hope ? "I don't know. I don't see anyone with vision anymore. Nobody has big vision. I'd belong to a world party if there was one, I would. On a purely local level, which you have to get down to eventually, I find my sympathies more and more, issue by issue, with people like the Workers Party -- Proinsias De Rossa I really respect. Tony Gregory I also respect. But it's issue by issue with me. There is this black hole, this void right now, as the world awkwardly changes gear from the twentieth century to the twenty-first and I think, in general, this will be looked back on as a really empty-headed period in political life." Would Bono describe himself as a pacifist? "I would love to be," he replies. In that context how would he view, for example, the prospect of all-out armed revolution in South Africa, a subject he refers to in "Silver and Gold." "I can really understand the overwhelming majority deciding to take up arms against the system of apartheid," he answers. "I could really understand and relate to it -- but I hope they don't have to do that. It would be better if it didn't have to happen that way. But I mean, there's another contradiction, another ugly contradiction of Ronald Reagan's America -- that they would support the Contras to undermine a state like Nicaragua which they see as illegal and yet they make no effort to undermine the Apartheid system which they also say is illegal." He pulls himself up short. "When it comes to discussing politics," he reflects, "I just want to be the man at the bar talking, that's all. No more or less educated about anything than anyone else. " Except of course that once the lead singer of U2 expresses (or is asked to express) an opinion on anything, there's a fairly widespread perception of Bono getting up on his soapbox again. "Yeah sure, but everybody's on their soapbox," he responds. "You know, you hear people saying that religion and politics are things you shouldn't talk about but they are two of the few things actually worth talking about. And everybody else in Ireland talks about them." When they aren't talking about money, perhaps. In "God Part II," Bono writes the following lines: "I don't believe in excess/success is to give/I don't believe in riches/But you should see where I live." Has he personally learned to resolve that paradox? "I have. OK, the contradiction is, essentially, writing songs that criticise the system and, at the same time, benefiting from the system. But I don't think that's bad. You ought to bite the hand that feeds you (laughs). Bite it. Why not?" To put it more bluntly -- does he feel guilty about his wealth? "Well, we have two ways of dealing with our wealth. We have what U2 does as a group -- decisions that are made collectively about income -- and we have our own personal responsibilities. Both we keep secret and while that doesn't absolve us from all the guilt of having a lot of money in a society that doesn't have much, at least it makes us feel we're doing something worthwhile with that money. There are still contradictions to be tackled but if I have to choose what I'm going to tackle in a day, I mustn't put it before being in a band making music. You know it's almost harder to give away money than to earn it because of the responsibilities involved." Is he philanthropic by nature? "Giving it away? I think to answer yes would be vain and if I said no? (laughs). You tell me!" It's an incidious position in a way. Secrecy on financial matters is understandable, yet it can mean the band is left open to a certain kind of sustained, and generally, ill-informed criticism. "I couldn't care less," he replies. "But I'll tell you what, U2, for all the flak we get on this level from the middle class, we still have a huge working class audience. I would get more flak in a pub in Foxrock than I would in the Ballymun House. There, I think people feel 'well, it's his business.' And they know we pay taxes and they know we make a lot of money for the country anyway. I mean, I don't mind paying taxes though I try to pay as little as I can obviously -- I prefer to equally distribute my own wealth (laughs)." The acquisition of wealth for its own sake, is riot something that motivates him."I think I've said before that I always felt rich. When we were growing up, the Lypton Village gang, some of us had money, some of us didn't. I didn't notice. I was being supported by my mates, by Ali, by everything. But I'm not stupid. I know how to make money, and probably have some sense in that area, but I'm not interested in it for its own sake and never have been. You know, my old man laughs at me, he finds it hysterically funny 'cos I was never interested in money. He thinks this is evidence of God's sense of humour because I'm just not that way. I'm probably greedy in other ways -- possessive about people maybe." From "Bad," through "Running to Stand Still" to "Desire" and "Hawkmoon," it's the image of the needle that recurs. Why the fascination? "All I can say is that I'm probably an addictive kind of person myself. Also I have some sympathy as I had some friends who were addicts -- even in Cedarwood, which is a fine and okay neighbourhood, there was a lot of heroin at one time. Heroin is the drug that fascinates me because under the influence of it, it seems people think that that's how they really are, and when they come out of it, that isn't really them. It seems very like what fame and stardom does to some people -- sometimes they think they really are the image they project, and eventually they can't live without this image of themselves. Also there is the fascination of death and flirting with death that's also part of heroin use." Was he in any way traumatised by seeing the effects of heroin on friends? "I'll tell you -- and this will sound bad -- but I felt left out rather than traumatised. I felt like I almost wanted to be a part of it, so I could understand better. It's like if you see things tearing at people, you want to try and understand the way that they feel. And in the case of drugs, you're very much on the outside if you're not doing them it's very hard to get on the inside." With heroin use happening virtually under his nose at one stage, what stopped him going down the same road? "In the end I got something better. There are very few things, I would imagine, that can rival the high of heroin for people looking for a way out of a low life. And it was my faith that brought me higher. It is a higher love." But was he ever seriously tempted to try heroin? "I don't really want to talk about this. If I talk about drugs I'm going to have the Customs looking up my bum every time I come into the country. It's a bit of a minefield really doing an interview with U2. There are all these things I want to talk about...sometimes I'd love to be in R.E.M. and talk about Athens or -- who else would I like to be -- I'd like to be somebody who talks about the Velvet Underground and their influence on us." The hedonism for so long synonymous with rock 'n' roll, the old "nothing succeeds like excess" schtick that predominated for two decades and more, was something U2 conspicuously rebelled against when they emerged in the late Seventies. "Yeah, these were cliches -- and they were daft and outmoded. I think that when people look back on U2 they'll realise that we pointed out the contradictions; that the leather jacket does not equal rebellion, that smashing a hotel room is something the system wants, even encourages -- the record company loves to pay the bill, it's the cheapest press they can get and the hotel likes it because they get a new room. Again, smashing a guitar is only an endorsement of its in-built obsolescence like people building cars that won't work in a few years. Destroying your own guitar just means you'll have to buy another one. There's nothing rebellious about that -- that's part of the establishment. "Punk was a middle-class movement that conscripted the working class, basically, to give it credibility. It was about anarchy as a coffee table concept. Mind you, I'm fascinated by anarchists. In terms of belief they're the only ones, I feel, because I think that the Judaeo/Christian belief in love as the higher law, the spirit leading you and no one knowing where it goes to -- I think that's very close to anarchy. Religion has suppressed this aspect of Christ's teaching about living by the spirit, which is, essentially, 'hands-off motherfuckers -- this is my life and it's between me and God and no one else.' "But, anyway, where were we? Rebellion. I'm trying to point out that, say in the '50s when sex had been hidden away and not owned up to, expression like you had in rock 'n' roll then was genuinely rebellious and shocking. But not any more. Now, Coca-Cola sells the same sex that rock 'n' roll sells. It's the same girl in the ad as on the rock video on TV -- the same girl, the same version of 'tits.' "And, by the way, I think that the Pogues have pointed out another redundant concept. I think that the most radical thing about the Pogues is that you'll find a sixty-year-old man in a pub singing one of their songs and fully understanding what it is all about, maybe more than his son does. The generation gap doesn't exist anymore. I know old men who are more interesting than their children or their children's children, and I know people of twenty-five who are dead and they're just postponing their funeral 'till they're seventy or whatever." Some might consider it ironic that ten years on, Bono and U2 would find themselves working with Keith Richards, a man who even by the outset of U2's career, had long since come to represent the definitive example of the so-called elegantly wasted rock star, a role-model embodying precisely those qualities U2 stood four-square against. "But if Keith was twenty years old in the '80s I don't think he would have got into junk, he wouldn't have been into heroin as rebellion," Bono counters. "The '60s were a different time and in terms of rock 'n' roll it was the first time. People were dizzy with it and maybe it seemed the right thing to do at the time or whatever. But it is quite obvious it was the wrong thing to do because a lot of people died. Now we know that, but then they didn't. That was the generation that thought it could live forever; they thought they had their immortal number plates on their car." At the same time Bono concedes to a loosening-up, over the years, in the band's dealings with the world of rock 'n' roll. "Yeah, we were a bit uptight at one stage, though you must remember that with Lypton Village and so on, we weren't coming from an all pious or monk-like existence. But at the time when we first started exploring the teachings of Christ and studying the Scriptures, we got involved in something that on one level was opening our minds to a wider reality but which on another just closed us off to certain experiences. But, you know, you go through things." Was there a point when it seemed like there was a clear-cut choice between rock 'n' roll and some members' religious convictions? "There was that point. Yeah. The Edge and myself left the band for a while, certainly in our heads. But nobody else would have us (laughs)." In Bono's conception, God is not a puritanical force. "Oh no, God is much bigger than that. Religion is much bigger than any one point of view. It's much bigger than my point of view or the Catholic Church's point of view or the Protestant Church's. But you can explore things and I'm very curious -- that's probably my strongest character trait actually. I will go wherever I have to go to see something through. And it sometimes gets me into lots of trouble. I've experienced a lot in the life that I've had and I've met a lot of interesting people whether in Ballymun or in a village in El Salvador or with a nurse in Ethiopia or with a bum in L.A. or with a star in Hollywood or with a prime minister of a country. Whatever. I'll listen to anyone. "It's funny, but I think there is a real lack of understanding about what we are, the band members and myself. We're all either seen as saint or sinner, when we're all of us -- not just the band - a mixture of both. A lot of people seem to me to write about caricatures of U2. Nobody shades in the fact that I'm just curious. You know, why did Bono go up to Garret Fitzgerald? Why would that be? Curiosity. The sort of thing that any writer has. It's what he was born with. I think it's quite amazing that people don't understand that." Is Bono's faith as much of an anchor in his life now as when he first embraced it? "It's more than that. It's the paradox that God is for the Godless. People who can swim don't need a lifeguard. It's just that in the madness of my own life I find sanity in studying the Scriptures when I can and if I can. I'm not a big church-goer and I don't have any formal religion." The cliche, of course, is that the world of rock 'n' roll is a Godless world. "Yeah, that's why all great rock 'n' roll music comes up against God I suppose. That's why Prince, that's why Bob Dylan, that's why Marvin Gaye, that's why Elvis, that's why Jerry Lee Lewis, that's why Patti Smith, that's why B.B. King, that's why Van Morrison, that's why U2, probably that's why Pete Townshend -- in some ways this is what probably separates pop music from rock 'n' roll. I mean rock 'n' roll is about sex and pop music is supposed to be about sex too isn't it? So what's the difference? Is it that rock 'n' roll is a bit bigger than that? It seems to explore more. I used to think we were the odd ones out. Now I realise that our generation is the blank generation. And we're not the freaks. We're totally in line with all these artists and maybe this explains the reason why we go back to them." Bono's avowed belief in an all-loving God remains unshaken by the immense problems facing humanity. "I can't understand how people could blame starvation and famine on God. That's to suggest we live in God's world but I don't think that this is the world God created. This is the world we created and sickness is a part of it. I believe that God inspires the minds of men towards medicine and towards advances that can inoculate a whole world. You know, there's enough food in the world to feed everybody -- don't blame God for the fact that we don't share it out. That's something that I got over very early on -- the idea of how could he. "At the same time I don't expect this pie in the sky when you die stuff. My favourite line of prayer is 'Thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven.' I want it all and I want it now. Heaven on earth now -- let's have a bit of that. But religions won't buy into that." Because they're primarily interested in power? "Well, to me faith in Jesus Christ that is not aligned with social justice, that is not aligned with the poor -- it's nothing. How can you read the Gospel of Luke the physician and call yourself a Christian and have health cuts? How can you not work towards the ends of social justice? "One thing I think people forget is how radical Christ was. People were put to death for the idea that all men were created equal, which meant essentially that Jewish peasants were equal to Roman emperors. That was radical. And to me, there's nothing more radical or revolutionary than love -- the love two people have for each other for instance. Because it's so hard to find. My version of love is not soft, it's hard. You know, the Christ I read about in the Gospels is steel not straw." Bono acknowledges that, though not at all enamoured of organised religion -- which he considers "almost entirely a betrayal of the teachings of Christ" -- there are certain ceremonial and symbolic aspects which he finds attractive. "There are some interesting symbols going on like that of baptism, immersion in water," he observes. "I find generally that I'm attracted to images that have a double meaning like fire which can be destructive or a sign of life or the desert which symbolises a lack of living things yet where things can become clear and there's no obstruction. But I think you should take what you want and leave the rest. Everyone is trying to find their own way in the world and in terms of the way you live your life and religion and all that, it's between you and God. It's nobody else's business. And can we change the subject now, please? (laughs)." One last observation: for a lot of people, religious faith seems to be not so much a source of inspiration as a simple refuge from the storm, something to fall back on at times of crisis. "Well I've used God as a drug sometimes, when I was troubled, and when I'm out of trouble I've walked away from him. But to me it's been more of a source of pain because it's affected the way I see the world and, essentially, it's been the matchsticks that keep my eyes open and stop me from shutting out the things I see around me." Were it not for his faith, would he, in rock 'n' roll terms, have burned out a long time ago? "It's probable that a person with my kind of personality would have. But, you know, I can't say for sure. I'm nearly burnt out as it is and I have faith." The night grows old and, by now, Bono has a guitar on his lap, quietly plucking the strings as the conversation moves towards a conclusion. At this late hour, talking about anchors in his life, it seems natural, if not a little intrusive, to enquire about his long-time relationship with Alison. "Well I just love women," he grins. "I love women, they're definitely the stronger sex. Some of my best friends are women. Some of my best friends dress up as women too (laughs)." Why does he see women as stronger? "In their discipline, in terms of the level of pain they can take before they cry out. That they can go through the pain of childbirth at all is remarkable to me. I just have a real respect for women and I suppose the woman I respect most of all happens to be my wife. And she is definitely the better half. She just is. She is smarter, more secure, much more disciplined, has things in much better perspective...you know, the list goes on." Sounds like Bono's pretty much of a write-off then! "(Laughs) I dunno! When I say smarter that does not mean that I'm dumb. Not as smart, in this case, could still be very smart (laughs)." It's the most cliched of showbiz questions, but has Bono's success, and the lifestyle it entails, placed a strain on the marriage? "If it had I wouldn't tell you," he replies evenly. "I wouldn't." Does it piss him off that that kind of interest exists, that the press will want to take photos of Ali and so on? "No, but it might piss Ali off," he responds. "And this is one person who wishes to make it on her own, who was never my girlfriend and she's not my wife..." As in chattel, possession...? "Yes. Thank you, Liam." Is he at all interested in the idea of having a child? "I probably have a hundred of them -- oops, did I say that!!?" he laughs. "But yeah, I probably need a child, somebody else to look after me. Ali's getting fed up with the job..." Some people speak of a very strong paternal instinct but Bono doesn't reckon he has it. Or at least not yet. "Some people say I'm gonna get it but I don't know. I really like the Edge's kids and my brother's family have helped me to figure it out a little bit. I think I've decided I like children who like me!" There's an enormous responsibility involved. "Yeah, I'm big on that. There is a side of rock 'n' roll which can give you a way out of facing up to responsibilities and even growing up -- just becoming a man. I suppose, indirectly, I have a lot of responsibilities to a lot of people whose lives depend on U2 -- so one more maybe wouldn't make that much difference! But I hope that if I do have a child, the child will be a lot more at ease than I was with his world or her world." We're nearly there. It seems the right moment to ask the Big Question. We'd talked for a bit about "I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For," Bono observing that the reason the song struck such a deep, popular chord was because it concerned "the truth of most people's experiences." But can he define in any concrete way what it is he's looking for? "Oh that was Edge's phrase," he replies. "Edge said it and I wrote the song around it. One thing I know and I must say this to you...Coca Cola is not it (laughs)." The master tapes of Rattle and Hum may still be warm to the touch but already, Bono reveals, U2 are doing the groundwork for their first album of the Nineties. "If people didn't like Rattle And Hum, they won't like what's coming," he asserts, "I don't mean that in musical terms -- I mean that we're going to continue to put out records in that kind of way. "I think a lot of people who don't like the record, and a lot of people who don't like U2, actually haven't listened to U2. It tends to be that they hear a record on the radio or someplace else. But we've started to make records now for ourselves and for our own audience who do listen very carefully to our records and who do spot all the subtleties. So that's really it. "Basically, we're the Grateful Dead of the '90s!" © Hot Press, 1988. All rights reserved.
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